Ep 102: Using AI to Scale Your Content Creation Efforts with Author and Publisher Jenn T. Grace
Erin [00:00:02]:
Hello everyone. Welcome to this Scaling Expertise podcast. You may know me from the hourly Exit podcast. This is my the first interview under the new rebrand, but we're still talking to experts about decoupling their income from their time, you know, using their expertise to create assets that can scale. And so I'm very happy to have my first guest today, Jen T. Grace. I need to ask you about that T. Is that because there's so many Jen Graces or.
Jen T. Grace [00:00:34]:
There is.
Erin [00:00:38]:
I will say that I, you know, on LinkedIn I call myself the original, the OG. I'm so cool, Erin Austin, because I've been on LinkedIn so long, but now there are so many Aaron Austin's like it. Like back in the day I was like the only Erin Austin on the Internet. And now there's lots and lots of us. But it's wild.
Jen T. Grace [00:00:58]:
It's all branding. Right? Gotta figure it out.
Erin [00:01:00]:
Exactly. Well, welcome Jen. So. So tell us who you are and who you help.
Jen T. Grace [00:01:07]:
I am an author and I'm also a publisher. So I am the author of seven books which include my memoir, House on Fire, and my nonfiction book which is called Publisher Purpose, which is also my company name, how to Write, publish and grow your big idea. So my way that I show up in the world, at least in this current iteration of myself for the last 10 years, is helping aspiring authors either figure out how to write their story or to actually publish their, their book for them. And it just kind of depends on a number of different variables, kind of where people are. But you know, the, the publishing landscape is pretty big and pretty complex. And so I really spent a lot of time educating first time authors on all the nuances about how to actually get their book out into the world.
Erin [00:01:53]:
Tell us what exactly is a hybrid publisher, just. And distinguish it from traditional and self publishing.
Jen T. Grace [00:01:59]:
Yeah, I'll give you the kind of, the abridged version I have. Lord knows I got plenty of information on my website if anyone wants more. But it is basically, if we look at how publishing has always been, we think of traditional publishing, we think of Simon and Schuster, we think of Penguin Random House like the big New York City publishing houses. That is traditional publishing. And with traditional publishers, they only serve a very small percentage of authors because of how their business model works and how, you know, they're looking for authors that have big platforms and you know, can really see, sell a lot of books. Then you have the other side, which is self publishing, which is wonderful and there's a lot of people who do it really well. But there's a lot of people who don't do it well. And self publishing can be overwhelming, it's time consuming, it can be expensive.
Jen T. Grace [00:02:42]:
So there's all kind of that. Hybrid publishing sits directly in the middle of both of those extremes where you get the quality, the service, the expertise of what you'd expect from a New York City house, but also have that control and ownership and the IP of being able to own all of that as if you were self publishing.
Erin: [00:02:59]:
And do you help people source, like all of the vendors that are required to publish and distribute a book?
Jen T. Grace [00:03:06]:
Yes. Since we are a publisher ourselves, we have, we are the source of all of the vendors. So that's kind of one of those benefits of a hybrid. So if you're self publishing, you need to start to kind of figure out, all right, how am I going to find a cover designer, how am I going to find an editor? All of those kind of big, like, I don't know what I'm doing. When you're working with a hybrid, all of those exist under one roof.
Erin: [00:03:24]:
Got it. Awesome. And so how long have you been doing it and how did you get into it?
Jen T. Grace [00:03:29]:
Well, I wrote my first book in 2012, published it in 2013, published another one in 2014 and another one in 2015. So I had three books in three years that all came out and everyone in my network was like, how did you know how to write a book? I'm like, I don't know, I just figured it out. And they're like, well, how did you know how to publish a book? I'm like, I don't know, I just figured it out. Were those books great? No, they were not. They are. They are. You know, especially now, having been doing this for as long as I have. Those first few books were the typical self published books that were not ideal.
Jen T. Grace [00:04:01]:
But I had a lot of people in my network who were, who were enthusiastic about wanting to write their own books. And I was doing consulting at the time and I had my own business. So I was able to kind of like start to dabble in. All right, what does it look like if I were to help writers figure out how to either write or publish their books? And so I started a program in February of 2015, 2015. So it's almost 10 years exact on the writing side where the first group of people went through my program in the beginning of February and I was like, I over 14 weeks, I'm going to show you how to get your book published. And I did that a couple of times in 2015. And I had a couple of students say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that you're, you're helping show me how to do it, but I just want to pay you to do it for me. And I was like, what? I'm like, what is this? I didn't even know hybrid publishing was a thing at the time.
Jen T. Grace [00:04:48]:
And I was like, well, let me look into that. And then by the, when the time the person said that to the time that I was like, I need to do this, it was four days where I like really sat with it and I was like, ooh, I think this is the thing that is scalable that will allow me to have a team to kind of do the things rather than being a solo kind of independent consultant and also kind of feed that brain of mine that is incredibly curious and wants to know everything about everything. And so it, it kind of satisfies personal needs and professional needs. And so at that point I'm like, well, I guess I'm going all in on this. So I closed my consulting business down in 2017 and have been doing it full time since.
Erin: [00:05:26]:
That is amazing. Well, you use the magic word scalable. And so lots of this audience will be solo consultants who haven't quite cracked the cell, not selling their time.
Jen T. Grace [00:05:40]:
Yeah.
Erin: [00:05:41]:
And so when you were looking at like what could be scalable, what things were you thinking about and how did you get there?
Jen T. Grace [00:05:47]:
Well, the funny part is what I was thinking and then what ended up happening are not the same, but what I was thinking because I was the solo independent consultant and I had a really successful like mid six figure business that did everything I needed to do. I had a lot less stress than I currently have and I was like, I, I. And I was doing a lot of keynote speaking, so I was tired of getting on a stage and saying the same thing and people not taking the action to actually see the results. So I was kind of getting fatigued by having those conversations. So when I started that group writing program and group publishing program, I was like, this is my ticket to scaling. I'm now not just me, I'm bringing in groups of people and then I can bring in a facilitator who can then run the groups of people. And it in that program still exists. It's called Getting Started for Authors.
Jen T. Grace [00:06:35]:
It's a six month writing intensive and you know, ten years later exists. And it's phenomenal and it is completely self contained. We have facilitators. It's incredible. But my goal was like just that like at the time, like 10 years ago, my goal was like, how do I just do with this? Because that's going to be the thing that I can scale. And then the reality is that I ended up starting a very labor intensive, staff heavy business instead. So. Yeah, so it, and, but obviously there's scaling in that.
Jen T. Grace [00:07:01]:
But I was thinking more of just kind of scaling my time is really what my, my objective was back in 2015.
Erin: [00:07:07]:
Yeah, I mean, people forget employees are absolutely scaling. You know, it's like because as the founder owner, you are the most expensive resource in your business at any time. You can carve off part of what you do to another resource that can still provide the value to your clients. That is successful scaling right there. And so it's not just about, you know, courses and things like that that people hear about, but also just however you are able to more efficiently develop the deliver value to your clients, which is fantastic. And so we're going to talk first about, because you have, you know, you mentioned AI and how it's working in publishing. Let's talk about a. I love to talk about that.
Erin: [00:07:54]:
But then I do want to circle back around to, you know, the fact that you're B corp and some of the other good works that you do as well. But let's talk talk about AI and publishing.
Jen T. Grace [00:08:06]:
I love talking about AI and publishing. And I think AI, it's, it's honestly the thing that I think every business has to pay attention to and I also think is a little piece of a secret for scaling because I remember just a couple of years ago where we were paying thousand dollars plus a year for copywriters to do a whole bunch of things that now AI is doing for us. And it's obviously taken a long time to like really make sure that AI has a lot of inputs from our content. And because I am on podcasts, I have my own podcast, I've written books.
It's very easy for it to capture my voice because it has a lot of inputs to work with. Whereas I think folks that might not have, that might be a little bit harder, but it's not impossible. And so I think from a scaling standpoint and just a growth standpoint, from a content alone, not even publishing specific, but just content in general, I think that's like the easiest, easiest way to do it because we could take this recording, throw it into AI and say, hey, create a blog post about this or create a LinkedIn article about this conversation I had with this really awesome person, Aaron, and it will do that for us. And so I think from that standpoint, it's fantastic.
Jen T. Grace [00:09:16]:
From a book specific standpoint, there's a lot of. A lot of trickiness happening right now because there's intellectual property problems, there's copyright problems. And so what we want to be mindful and intentional of is in my case, we have a very flat, flat policy that is we will not accept a manuscript that has been generated by AI. It is just an absolute no, because there's too many unknowns. And I'm not getting sued because someone was taking a shortcut. Can a book be assisted? So there's AI generated and there's AI assisted. Assisted, sure.
Because if you're like, hey, I'm trying to write a book and I don't try to figure out, like, here's all the things I talk about, like, is there a way that you can help me figure out a table of contents? Like, those are all, like, really good ways of using it, but actually, just copying and pasting and dropping in whatever chatgpt told you to is a very dangerous way to get yourself in trouble very quickly.
Erin: [00:10:04]:
Yeah, I mean, there's so many things wrong with that. I mean, one of which, I mean, like, actually there's this quote of yours that I love, which is, I passionately believe the more raw and real we can be, the deeper the connections we can experience. That is not happening with AI generated content, but from a purely legal perspective. Yeah. I mean, you know, who knows where what the source is and not, you know, obviously, you know, the chat GPTs of the world don't make any reps and warranties about the materials that are coming out of there. Who knows if it's accurate, depending on, you know, what you're writing about, where you absolutely need. Do you have up to date and accurate information? You know, I think it's. I'm losing track now.
Erin: [00:10:52]:
Was it two years ago, I think, that I first discovered ChatGPT and it was by accident because I am a avowed, you know, luddite. I mean, I just, you know, I'm like, that I get this done is a miracle, right? And I had to do continuing legal education. And I'm like, okay, what's available? And there was this thing about ChatGPT. I'm like, okay, I guess I'll look at it.
And so I'm kind of half listening to it, you know, and kind of, you know, doing some work, and they're talking about what it can do, and I'm like, huh? And I just kind of open up a, you know, browser and put it in there. And start playing around with it. I'm like, oh, my God. I mean, I really just, to me, like, AI was like blockchain.
Erin: [00:11:39]:
Like, it was that, like, there's no need for me to ever know what this is. I'll never know what this is. And then I'm like, oh, my God. And it obviously changed. Not just changed my life, but changed the world, obviously, as well. And. But the first thing that I tried after I got off that call, that webinar, I had a client agreement that I was working on where I needed to reference the law of a different state that was like, okay, this law in this state covers this issue. I need the, you know, similar law in this other state.
Erin: [00:12:14]:
And I just asked it that. And it came up with this citation, everything. Oh, great. And I'm like, let me just check it. And it made it up. Made it up completely. Like, didn't even exist. And I'm like, okay.
Erin: [00:12:27]:
It was a very good first lesson about the limitations of AI. And while I will absolutely say that the voice of AI has gotten a lot better in those two years, like, the fact that it can hallucinate, I mean, that's just the fact. A function of being generative. I mean, it's. It's not, you know, just Google, it is making assumptions. That's what it does. And so, yeah, there's all kinds of.
Jen T. Grace [00:12:56]:
Bias coded into the programming of it, which is also problematic in a lot of ways. So there's. It said it's an infancy, but I do think it's one of those things that, like, as business owners, like, we can't ignore it. You know what I mean? I think it's one of those things, as much as you might want to be like, ah, I'll come back to it later, your competitors are going to be using it and they're going to be going 10x faster than you. And so I think that that's like the. The thing of trying to find that balance for folks, especially for those who are Luddites, right? Where it's like, this is the last thing I want to do. But, like, no offense to my aunt. I have an aunt in her 60s who is.
Jen T. Grace [00:13:27]:
She's basically my mother. And she and I were chatting about AI the other day because she's like, I'm using it for grant writing. I'm using it to do fundraising emails because she's a director of development. And I was like, oh, my God, it brings me such joy knowing, because she is like, she can barely use her phone on a good day. And so like to see her like thriving with AI and she's like, I really think this is going to help me extend my career well, well into my late 60s, which wasn't her original plan. So it's kind of cool to see these positive sides of it. Even if it's in its very clunky, messy early stages. It's only going to improve from here, we hope.
Erin: [00:14:03]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, and speaking of, you know, the efficiencies that you get from it, you know, I have clients that, you know, their employees are very eager to use it because there's, whatever the issue is, there is an AI driven solution, period, like whatever it is. And so they all like oh I found this thing. But you have to balance some of the downsides. You know, certainly, you know, is it secure? Like are you disclosing confidential information when you're using it? You know, obviously the quality of the outputs as well. So there, there are some risk management that's required. Definitely use it, but just be mindful of its limitations and making sure you're, you're watching that. All right, so now you are a, a B Corp and how does that feed into what you do like on a day to day basis?
Jen T. Grace [00:15:01]:
Yeah, I love that question because I am so passionate about the B Corp community. And so a B Corp really in this case there's benefit corporations which are legal designations and then there are certified B Corps, which is a voluntarily, voluntarily certification that you can go for that basically says that you as a business meet the gold standard of sustainable business practices, environmentally friendly practices, diverse practices. Like there's a whole litany of things that it really, really kind of drives you to have to be better and do better.
And so when you see that that be in a circle on packaging, it really means that that company has a deep commitment to equity to you know and every, everyone has a little bit different. So like in our case like we have a strong focus on diversity and so we have a really, a really, really strong, diverse supply chain because that's something that I can control and it's something I was already doing before the B Corp thing. I even knew it existed. So there's really kind of cool things around what the B Corp kind of that, that logo does for you. And there are consumers who are attuned to wanting to buy eco conscious materials and goods and things like that.
Jen T. Grace [00:16:19]:
And so they see the B and they're like, I don't care what the price is, it's a B Corp, I'm buying it. Like I'm Absolutely that person. So even like alcohol, there's alcohol brands that are B Corps. I'm like, is Maker's Mark my favorite whiskey? No. But am I going to drink it? Yes. Because they're a B Corp. Right. So it's like one of those things.
Jen T. Grace [00:16:35]:
And so what I love about it is it really is a market differentiator for businesses. So in the publishing space it's a really busy space. In general, like it's a very crowded space. Hybrid publishing is also getting really crowded. And so I'm able to kind of have that seal of approval that says to someone who is more focused on the eco friendly side of things to say, oh, that means this company is doing things differently and operating differently because the B Corp mantra is people in planet before profits. And it's not to say you cannot run a profitable business because that is absolutely not the case. It is just saying that your focus is on the stakeholders of who you're serving over your bottom line. So when, when.
Jen T. Grace [00:17:18]:
So that's how I look at it from a decision making process of is there, can we make a decision here that is going to put who we're serving ahead and also make us money? But if it's only going to make us money and it's not putting who we serve ahead, then the answer is going to be no. So it's a nice way from a day to day basis to gauge how to make, how to make decisions that feel aligned with what we're up to.
Erin: [00:17:38]:
Yeah. I will say there's no more time. Well, we need to have this conversation for a long time in the past, but we are where we are today. We're, we're recording this in early January. We, you know, have very public case in the news regarding profits well over people and, and people are really rethinking the way, you know, the role that businesses play in our lives and, and that is there a way for them to make our lives better instead of just extracting, extracting, extracting.
Jen T. Grace [00:18:16]:
And the answer is yes.
Erin: [00:18:17]:
Yeah, that's, you know, you would think so and I think so. But it is a tough one and it will also. I want to talk about the non one of the organizations that you mentioned, diverse books.org who, well you tell us about it and then we talk about like how it, it can play into.
Jen T. Grace [00:18:43]:
Yeah. So if we look at publishing broadly, it has been very exclusive in many, many ways for a very, very long time and it's just not how the world works anymore. It does not reflect what the world looks like at Least you know, I'm thinking like publishing us based publish specifically. And so when we look at there's a lot of independent organizations that are out there that are doing really strong work to say, hey wait a minute, there's not enough representation in this type of book. And so we need Diverse Books has been a partner of ours, if you will, for a number of years. Because instead of going back to the B Corp decision making, right, instead of sending our authors some BS plastic thing with our name on it for the holidays, we will make a donation in their name to this organization. This year we actually changed it to a different organization, but same concept where the intention is if I'm going to spend $10 on some nonsense gift, I'd rather give it to a nonprofit who's doing really good work. And so like with We Need Diverse Books, their mission is strongly, largely based on showing kids representation within children's books.
Jen T. Grace [00:19:54]:
We don't publish children's books. We are specifically business books, leadership, self help, that's kind of our jam. But at the same time like I don't need to be giving money to another organization that's doing the work that we're doing. I'd rather give it to a non profit who's going to help. At least kids see themselves reflected back in the work. And it's reflection of all different types of elements of diversity. It's not just what, it's not just the, the diversity that you can see. It's a lot of different other areas.
Jen T. Grace [00:20:20]:
And so you know, it's one of those things that I think we need Diverse Books does a really tremendous job and they're obviously always looking for money. And now when we look at just the amount of book like book banning has been around for, for forever, right?
It's just always been a thing. It's just becoming more prevalent and more common that books that were long held staples in, you know, in institutions are now like suddenly on band list. And so there's a lot of that that's happening and it's really, I think impacting children's ability to see themselves reflected back in, in books that are being being held in school.
So we have really cool organizations that are doing all that work. I just like to be, I like to know what they're up to. I like to support them when we can. And I just, I love that that kind of mission exists because you know, if you can see it, you can be.
Jen T. Grace [00:21:06]:
It's such a cliche statement, but it's really true. And it starts with kids books yeah.
Erin: [00:21:10]:
You know, speaking of banned books, it does seem that if you look at the list of the most recently banned books, diverse voices seem to be really on the hit list, honestly.
Jen T. Grace [00:21:20]:
Sure are.
Erin: [00:21:21]:
And yeah, very sad. So let's circle back to the work that you do. So you work with, you know, thought leaders. Pretty general term, like, who is your best client and what can they expect? Like, what is reasonable to expect from having a hybrid published book?
Jen T. Grace [00:21:40]:
Yeah. So the best, I would say the best thought leader, if you will, is someone who is someone who's motivated to do something bigger with their book. Because there's a lot of very inexpensive avenues doesn't mean that it's going to look the best or be edited well or things like this. But like, if you want to just get a cheap book out quickly just to say that you wrote a book, there's plenty of paths that you can do that will do. I think it's going to damage your brand potentially. Yes. But at the same time, it's an available path. It is for someone who's really focused on.
Jen T. Grace [00:22:13]:
I am elevating myself as a thought leader. I have been, you know, either a business leader or sometimes it's corporate professionals who are kind of coming out of corporate and now they're going solo and want to be an independent consultant, but want to have some kind of credentialing behind them. Being an author is such a great way to make that happen. But the authors that thrive with us are the ones that see the book as the inroad to other opportunities, whether it's to be a guest on someone's podcast, whether it's to go speak to an organization to get new clients. Because if someone's coming to me and says, I need to sell a hundred thousand copies of my book the month that it comes out and have. And they have no mailing list, they have no platform, they have no nothing. It's a really wildly unachievable goal. But I'll say, like, hey, are you.
Jen T. Grace [00:23:00]:
Like, what's your. What's your motivation level? Like, what are. Like, what are you planning on doing to do this? And they're like, oh, well, it's just gonna happen. That is not how books sell. Like, that's just flat out just kind of a myth. So it's a matter of, like, if someone's motivated to say, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make sure that my message not. Not the books specifically, but my message gets into the hands of as many people as possible because it's going to transform lives it's going to impact people. That's the type of person that we're looking for.
Jen T. Grace [00:23:24]:
The book is really just a very, very small piece of a much, much bigger ecosystem that we're plugging into. Like our expertise is the book, but we also know how the ecosystem works. So we can provide really strategic guidance and advice to say, hey, you know, if you want to do podcasting here, go talk to this person. Here, go talk to this person. For social media, whatever other things that might accompany it is really kind of our. Our core focus is really that motivated person who just wants to make a difference but is business minded. So then they're, you know, it's not just a I want to make a difference and then has like fairy tale ideas of what that might look like, you know.
Erin: [00:23:58]:
Yeah, yeah. I think people are generally surprised by how hard it is to sell a book and to get attention. You know, I think whenever we look at the numbers for like the New York Times bestseller, we think that's like a million copies. But it's. What, what is it? It's like some.
Jen T. Grace [00:24:14]:
It's celebrity.
Erin: [00:24:16]:
Yeah, yeah. You know, and so that. Thank you. That's very helpful. Well, it has been an absolute joy to have you on the podcast, Jen. Thank you so much for being the inaugural guest on Scaling Expertise. And so please tell everyone where they can find you and if there's anything that you you're offering right now, you wanted to push, that's great. Otherwise, just tell us where we can find you and connect with you.
Jen T. Grace [00:24:39]:
Awesome. Thanks, Erin. I love being the first. This is so. This is so great. I had no idea. How fun. So the best way to find me is publishyourpurpose.com
Jen T. Grace [00:24:49]:
my focus really is on empowErin:g and educating first time authors. So we have a lot of free resources that are readily available. There's no hard sell. It's just like, here's what to think about, here's what to consider. So that's the easiest way if you want to connect with me personally. LinkedIn is where I like to spend my time. I'm on all the other platforms at gent grace. However, LinkedIn is where you will absolutely find your way to actually connecting with me.
Erin: [00:25:11]:
Fantastic. And we will have all of those links in the show notes as well as diversebrooks.org great organization to support and thank you again, Jen. It's been a pleasure.
Jen T. Grace [00:25:24]:
Thanks Erin. Appreciate it.